Rose Ors: What is a life moment that has shaped you?

Rachel Gonzalez:听Our family moved from California to New Orleans when I was starting first grade. On the first day in my new school, the teacher asked me what language we spoke at home. I told her we spoke Spanish and English. Based only on the fact that I was bilingual, she placed me in a learning group below my capabilities. Several weeks later, my mother noticed I was flying through my reading and math workbooks. When she learned from me that the teacher had placed me in the remedial learning group, “learning group three,” without having been given a test to determine my skill level, she was outraged. The next day, my mom stormed into the principal’s office and demanded that I be tested. I aced the tests and was placed in the most advanced group, “learning group one.”

My mother’s swift action showed me the importance of standing up for yourself and others. It was a lesson on the importance of advocacy that has stayed with me. I also learned another important lesson in those first few weeks in my new school 鈥� the difference between being well-intentioned and intentional. I believed then, and I believe now, that my first-grade teacher was a well-intentioned person who relied on a hunch or gut feeling to decide where I belonged. Had she been intentional in making such an important decision, she would have given me reading and math tests to measure my skills in these areas.

Rose Ors: How do the lessons you learned in first grade about advocacy and intentionality show up in your work life today?

Rachel Gonzalez: Personally, it is important to me to be an advocate for others who have proven their mettle and yet struggle to crack the glass ceiling. I am also part of a company that advocates for, and is intentional about, helping the people and the communities we impact that have long struggled with their own 鈥済lass ceilings.鈥� I have the privilege of working with my colleagues on policies and programs that move the needle towards a more equitable place for everyone. We are intentional about designing and implementing these policies and tracking and reporting on their efficacy.

Rose Ors: What career advice would you give your 20-year old self?

Rachel Gonzalez: My advice to any 20-year-old is to be less afraid of making mistakes. There is value in making mistakes as long as you make an effort to learn from them. Our 20s is a fantastic time to learn about who we are and how we want to show up in the world. It is a time to play and experiment. So, enjoy and embrace the ride 鈥� both the successes and the lessons learned.

Rose Ors: Outside of your family and your work, what brings you joy?

Rachel Gonzalez:听There are many things that bring me joy. Since the start of the pandemic, I have added to my list long weekend hikes in and around Seattle. On these hikes, I take in the natural world with all my senses and enjoy the peaceful and meditative qualities it offers me. I also find joy starting my day with meditation and ending my day reading a great book of fiction. These habits and rituals have a way of both clearing and opening my mind.

Rose Ors: Moving to the expanding role of the in-house legal team, how has the role of the general counsel and law department changed since you took on the role in 2018?

Rachel Gonzalez:听The role of the general counsel has dramatically changed from being only a legal executive to being a business leader with legal acumen. In this expanded role, the general counsel and the law department work more closely with the business in setting and executing our strategy.

Long gone are the days when our role was to identify the business risks and offer mitigation strategies but leave it to the business to decide on the best path forward. I believe that today our role requires that we co-design business strategies and co-own their outcomes.

Rose Ors: In co-designing strategies and outcomes, the general counsel and law department must also get more comfortable with risk taking and failure 鈥� traits not commonly associated with lawyers. Is that correct?

Rachel Gonzalez:听I agree that the shift can make many lawyers uncomfortable. But the transition is necessary if we are to fulfill one of our principal roles 鈥� enabling the business to take calculated risks. Inherent in taking risks is the potential for failure. When failure happens or when the desired outcome fails to materialize, you take a step back, review the assumptions made and the approach taken to identify what went wrong, and transform the experience into lessons learned. Taking intelligent risks is critical to the growth of every organization.

Rose Ors: That require a learning and adaptive mindset, doesn鈥檛 it?

Rachel Gonzalez:听Exactly. It is the kind of mindset that the pandemic has required from all of us. The global health crisis challenged all of us in ways we could not have imagined. It tested our agility in a lightning-fast regulatory and business environment where change was the constant factor.

Rose Ors:听Have there been any other shifts?

Rachel Gonzalez:听Yes. Our law department is increasing our collaboration both within the department as well as with the internal business units we serve and the outside counsel we employ. It is essential in tackling complex problems to have cross-functional groups join forces early rather than wait for work to be transferred from one silo to the next.

The combined expertise and perspectives of these teams offer a richer set of problem-solving conversations and solutions.

The interview has been edited and condensed by Rose Ors.

We continue our regular feature,听, a column created by听听that brings 鈥渢he person behind the title鈥� to the forefront in interviews with some of the most influential members of the legal and business community.

Craig Katerberg, Chief Legal and Corporate Affairs Officer at the Budweiser Brewing Co., spoke with Rose Ors, the CEO and Founder of ClientSmart, about being more than a legal advisor, how to focus on the moment, and the continuing inspiration of family.

Rose Ors:听What is a childhood memory that brings you joy?

Craig Katerberg:听When I think about childhood memories, for me, it is all about family. One of my favorite memories is the annual summer car trip we made from our home in Michigan to northwest Iowa, where my mom was raised. It was four kids piled in a minivan for up to 12 hours. It was a blast for my siblings and me, but I’m sure we drove our parents nuts.

That said, my parents made each of these yearly adventures interesting by taking different routes and making sure we had a great time playing games and telling stories. These were the days before smartphones or iPads. There was something special about going toward our destination together as a family 鈥� it brought us together to create memories.

Rose Ors: What career advice would you give your 20-year-old self?

Craig Katerberg: I would offer two pieces of advice. I would tell 20-year-old me that every answer you give to the question: “What are you going to be doing in the next three to five years?” is bound to be wrong.

I do not mean to suggest that planning for the future is not essential. It is crucial to plan and weigh alternatives. But it is necessary to understand that your career is going to unfold differently than you anticipate. It is the way the world works. I would tell myself not to be so focused on future “what ifs” that I overlook the opportunities right in front of me. I would also tell myself to enjoy the present moment 鈥� the present is too important not to be lived.

Rose Ors: And the second piece of advice?

Craig Katerberg: The second piece of advice is that money does not matter, but debt matters a lot. You have maximum flexibility when money is not your sole objective, and your debt is manageable. Adopting this approach gives you freedom to pursue what is most meaningful to you, even if it might not be the most monetarily lucrative option available. Allowing debt to dictate your choices is almost a self-censorship of ideas and possibilities. If debt coerces you to pursue money, you may end up in golden handcuffs if the money multiplies or be shattered if the money dries up.

Rose Ors: Who or what inspires you, and why?

Craig Katerberg: Again, for me, it is all about family. So, my wife and children are a constant source of inspiration by just sharing their lives with me. The same is true of my parents and siblings. But the individuals who had a profound influence on me are my paternal grandparents, Everhardt and Jean Katerberg. I had the good fortune to grow up watching how they lived and what they valued.

Rose Ors: What made them so special?

Craig Katerberg: It was who they were as people, the values they showed, and the love they gave to the family. My grandfather was the first generation from the Netherlands. He went to school through eighth grade, then worked on farms before fighting in World War II, where he earned a Purple Heart. He was very comfortable showing affection and emotion at a time when that did not fit the masculine stereotype. He was a great role model for all, especially his sons and grandsons.

My grandmother was a force. She was an unapologetic feminist in her own right, even though that term did not exist back then. She was the matriarch of our family, and we witnessed how her strength helped her navigate a lot of challenging situations.

Rose Ors: In another life, what would be a career you would find interesting to pursue?

Craig Katerberg: I would be a cultural anthropologist. I have always had a fascination with how people from different cultures live and interact. I love working with people from different backgrounds and experiences and learning their traditions and beliefs. I have been fortunate in my career to work in cross-cultural environments and find it extremely rewarding.

Rose Ors: In practical terms, what does it mean for a general counsel to “understand the business” his company is in?

Craig Katerberg: The role of the general counsel is more than being a legal advisor; you have to be a business partner. As a business partner, the GC and any good legal advisor must understand the business environment the company operates in 鈥� its industry, and how its products are made, distributed, and sold. It requires an understanding of and empathy for challenges that our internal clients face.

My company makes and sells beer. To understand the business, I don’t just read and analyze legal and financial information. I also have to know how our product is made and distributed. I need to leave my office and spend time making the rounds with our sales team and our distributors. I need to visit where our product is sold and notice how our product is advertised and displayed. Truly understanding the business is an immersive, hands-on process.

Rose Ors: Now for the last question, how have your most trusted outside lawyers earned that special status?

Craig Katerberg: A lot of it is having spent sufficient time with us to have jointly tackled difficult situations. They have shown they’re looking out for the company’s best interest, even if that means having hard conversations with me, the CEO, their fellow partners, or others.

For someone to earn your trust, you need to have gone through a few trial-by-fire moments together to see their true colors.

This interview has been edited and condensed by Rose Ors.

Hannah Gordon, Chief Administrative Officer and General Counsel for the San Francisco 49ers professional football team, spoke with Rose Ors, the CEO and Founder of ClientSmart, about the importance of recommendations from outside counsel, achieving grittiness, and developing personal habits for success.

Rose Ors: What is a childhood memory that brings you joy?

Hannah Gordon: When I was in seventh grade, Maya Angelou came to speak at my school in Oakland because her grandson was a student there. A teacher chose my artwork for the back of the event’s program and I was excited that Ms. Angelou would see something she had inspired me to make. I had read her powerful autobiography, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, and I had been so moved by her story that I could not wait to see her and hear her speak.

Maya Angelou鈥檚 writing, speaking, the way she carried herself in the world made me feel important and powerful which was what I yearned to feel as a little girl. She also made me appreciate that life has value and beauty.

Rose Ors: What is a moment in your career that stands out as pivotal?

Hannah Gordon: My career in sports began in college. In 2001, I became the first female football beat writer for my college newspaper, the UCLA Daily Bruin. My new role was a big win for me, and I hope it kept the door open for other women to follow.

Rose Ors: What was it like being the first woman to cover the team?

Hannah Gordon: It was mostly a positive experience. A particular highlight was covering the annual Senior Bowl in Mobile, Ala. At the time, apparently many people there had never seen a woman in a locker room before.

After the game, I walked down to the field on my way to the locker room when a male sportswriter stopped me and said gruffly, “You better get your interviews out here in case you’re not allowed in the locker room.” When I asked why he thought I would be stopped, he shot back, “That’s how we do it down here.” So, I had to decide quickly: Do I scramble for interviews on the field because someone told me I couldn’t go to the locker room or do I march to the locker room acting as if I belong, and proceed to do my job? I chose to confidently walk straight to the locker room 鈥� and nobody stopped me.

That experience taught me several things. First, be careful to whom you listen. Second, do not let others dissuade you from pursuing your goals. Lastly, don’t shrink from the fight before you’ve been punched. I have applied those lessons countless times throughout my career.

Rose Ors: Where did you get your grittiness?

Hannah Gordon: There is no specific thing I can point to as a critical factor. I have always had a strong drive to succeed, a drive coupled with perseverance. I am stubborn and won鈥檛 give up until I have found a way to make it happen.

Rose Ors: Let’s talk about your new book, , which offers an 8-week journaling guide to success. What was your impetus for writing the book?

Hannah Gordon: Throughout my years in sports, young people ask me for advice on how to be a boss, and how to own their careers and their lives. I have always tried to help them as much as I could, often suggesting specific exercises for them to do. However, I hated not giving them enough tools to put into practice for the length of time needed to change their lives. I knew that football had provided me a template for success 鈥� from vision setting, to game planning, to team building. So, I wrote SZN of Change.

The book presents daily practices that I know from experience can help anyone 鈥� at any stage in their life and whether or not you like sports 鈥� develop habits to win in their personal and professional lives.

Rose Ors: Speaking of habits, how has the pandemic been for you now that much of work is done remotely?

Hannah Gordon: It has not been easy. For me, e-mail, the phone, and even Zoom work well as a means of exchanging information, but they do not help forge meaningful connections. I miss the in-person interactions you have when everyone is in the office.

I miss the bustle, the casual chit-chat we previously may have thought was a waste of time. A situation like this makes you realize that wasn’t true at all. It is the small interactions you have with people that build rapport. They allow you to hear a little bit about someone’s life outside of work. I miss that a lot.

Rose Ors: If you could have anyone over for dinner 鈥� living or dead 鈥� who would it be? And what questions would you ask them?

Hannah Gordon: I would need a dinner party. Perhaps more than one. There are so many people I would like to speak with who were famous, but I am also interested in the lives we have not recorded. I would invite my ancestors both recent and relatives who lived centuries ago and whose stories have been lost. I would ask them about their lives.

Rose Ors: Now the final question. Besides legal acumen, how can outside law firms add value?

Hannah Gordon: Law firms can add value by providing practical, timely advice that recommends a final decision. In-house, we always have to deal with fact-specific, time-sensitive questions that require a risk assessment and a conclusion. It does not help when a law firm gives us a brilliant 20-page memo covering all aspects of a potential issue that leaves the client wondering at infinite possibilities.

What we need is a risk assessment of actionable options, a recommendation, and why it is the best course of action. We can then agree or disagree, but we have the right materials with which to make the final call.

This interview has been edited and condensed by Rose Ors.

Ron Hauben, vice chair and general counsel at Ernst & Young (EY), spoke with Rose Ors, the CEO and Founder of ClientSmart, about his firm鈥檚 purpose, focusing on the highest value work, and becoming trusted advisors within the company.

Rose Ors: What professional experiences have shaped your career?

Ron Hauben: I have been inspired by and shaped by EY’s purpose: “Building a better working world.” It is what drives our strategy and informs how we reach critical business decisions. Our purpose is what makes me so proud of being part of EY.

Having worked as a lawyer in the accounting profession for more than 30 years, nearly 18 of those at EY, I have been involved in some of the largest, most complex transactions in the industry, including the merger of two major firms and bet-the-company litigation. These experiences have offered me the chance to work with, and sometimes against, the very best lawyers in the country.

Rose Ors: Could you say more about EY’s purpose?

Ron Hauben: “Building a better working world” is our North Star. It informs whom we serve, how we serve them, and why we serve them. It recognizes that our responsibility goes beyond meeting our clients’ needs. As auditors, we have a responsibility to serve the investing public, regulators, and other stakeholders.

My role, and indeed the role of each member of our legal department, is to protect and enable the business.

Our role is unique because what we do is critical to the effective functioning of capital markets. It is a special privilege that comes with special responsibilities.

Rose Ors: What is your contribution as the general counsel of one of the Big Four?

Ron Hauben: My role, and indeed the role of each member of our legal department, is to protect and enable the business. Doing so requires that we consider the law, the opportunity, and the risk of a business decision. We have to balance the risk and reward of any critical decision, whether it is launching a new business unit, an acquisition, deciding to settle or litigate a case, or a talent initiative. The balancing act is crucial.

Rose Ors: How critical is understanding the business?

Ron Hauben: It is fundamental to success. I tell the lawyers on my team that their highest value is achieved when they truly understand our business. It is not enough to be an excellent legal technician. Why? Because I want them to be trusted advisors to the people in our business units. You become a trusted advisor when others know you truly understand their challenges and goals. Not just the problem at hand, but the more holistic perspective of “What are we trying to accomplish?” 鈥� answering the what requires a robust understanding of the business.

Rose Ors: What lessons do you share with your legal team?

Ron Hauben: It is much easier for a lawyer to say “No” when they identify a risk than it is to say “Yes.” My focus has been on building a legal team that understands that a business succeeds by responsible risk-taking. More readily accepting risk is the most significant cultural change our team has made.

I also counsel the lawyers on my team to focus on the work that adds the highest value to the organization. For example, if a seasoned lawyer spends 50% of her time on things that a junior lawyer or a paralegal can do, she is diluting her value. Alternatively, if she spends 100% of her time working on matters only she or someone more senior can do, she enhances her contribution to the organization.

My message has landed. The team has matured in how they staff their matters and how they leverage our people and technology to be both efficient and high value. As a result, our lawyers’ personal brand and our brand as a legal department have been enhanced.

Rose Ors: Why is a personal brand important when you have a captive client?

Ron Hauben: Even with a captive client, each lawyer still needs to establish and deepen their relationships with their colleagues and the business units. A lawyer’s personal brand equals his institutional reputation, which is closely tied to being viewed as a trusted advisor.

Rose Ors: In your view, what are the critical attributes to being a legal professional today?

Ron Hauben: Professional ethics and integrity have always been must-haves. You can鈥檛 be an effective lawyer unless you are perceived as having both. Another table-stakes criterion is being an exceptional legal technician with strong business acumen. And probably most important is the ability to develop relationships of trust and confidence, in which your client wants to hear what you have to say because they believe you add value to their decision-making.

Rose Ors: Describe your leadership approach.

Ron Hauben: First of all, I want to hear the voices of my colleagues. I listen to what they have to say, and I am never put off by someone challenging my perspective. I think it makes for a richer discussion and a better decision when others are comfortable saying, “I hear you, but I disagree鈥� or 鈥淗ave you considered X?”

I’m a big fan of people sharing their viewpoints, asking questions, and raising concerns. I also am a big believer in letting people stretch themselves 鈥� and that means occasionally making mistakes. My approach is to offer candid feedback on what has been done well and what needs improvement.

I try to be selective in what I get involved with. I respect our chain of command and let people run their practices. In our legal department, lawyers take ownership of their matters because projects usually are assigned to individuals rather than teams. At the same time, we have a collaborative culture where people are comfortable seeking advice from others.

Rose Ors: What advice would you give lawyers who aspire to become general counsels?

Ron Hauben: I would advise them to become generalists because as a general counsel, they need a 360-degree view of the world. They don’t have to be able to do everything, but they need to understand everything. They need to understand the litigation risks of a business transaction and the business risks of a litigation strategy or a regulatory matter.

I would also advise them to develop a calming, mature presence. You always want your client to think, “I got this one. We’re going to manage through this together.”

Lastly, I would advise them to take networking seriously. Network inside and outside your organization 鈥� it is how you will build critically important relationships and establish your personal brand.

This interview has been edited and condensed by Rose Ors.

Marcela Kirberger, General Counsel, Chief Compliance Officer, and Corporate Secretary for Roche Diagnostics Corp., spoke with Rose Ors, the CEO and Founder of ClientSmart, about the value of diplomacy, compliance skills, and the joys of being a mentor.

Rose Ors:听What life moments have defined you?

Marcela Kirberger:听When I came to the U.S., I was 23 years old and had earned a law degree from the Catholic University in Argentina. I had decided not to go back to law school in the States because I was married and ready to start a family. Later, I joined a large telecommunications company as an environmental law paralegal. It was in this role that I had a defining moment.

In preparation for an upcoming client meeting, the lead in-house lawyer on the case asked me to review 12 boxes of documents and summarize the case’s critical issues. After spending days going through the documents, I provided the summary as requested. At the meeting, the client began to ask questions the attorney was unable to answer. I knew the answers and I offered them.

On the walk back to our hotel, the lawyer said to me, “Marcela, I know you’re a lawyer in Argentina, but you need to remember your place here. You’re just a paralegal. You cannot show the client that you know the case better than me.” The comments mortified and frustrated me. They also prompted me to act. The next morning, I called Rutgers Law School and got all the information I needed to go back to law school.

I do not know whether I would have gone back to law school had it not been for my hurt at being treated so poorly. But the experience taught me something about myself: I would not let others define me or tell me who I was and what I was capable of doing.

Rose Ors:听What sparked your initial interest in becoming a lawyer?

Marcela Kirberger: I have always valued the ability to bring people to the table to find meaningful solutions. Growing up, I read a lot about international relations and the power of diplomacy. I was impressed by how diplomats made things happen and defused tough situations through negotiation, persuasion, and influence. I wanted to develop these skills and use these tools not as a diplomat, but as a lawyer.

Rose Ors:听How essential is the ability to persuade and influence in your legal career?听

Marcela Kirberger: It has been crucial. I was fortunate to learn these skills from great bosses and mentors. Interestingly, I found that honing these skills was even more essential in my role as a global chief compliance officer. I am a much more effective lawyer by having been a successful compliance officer.

Rose Ors: How so?

Marcela Kirberger: Moving from legal to compliance completely changed my perspective about what you need to succeed in both roles. In a corporation, the business side views lawyers as subject-matter experts and is willing 鈥� for the most part 鈥� to defer to such expertise. Moreover, legal questions are viewed as having answers that are more black and white than in compliance.

In compliance, the emphasis often shifts from what is legal to do to what is right to do. In most instances, the group making these values-based decisions is composed of individuals who come to the table with their own views of what is right and wrong. Reconciling these different values in order to establish a common understanding of what鈥檚 at stake is possible only if you can persuade and influence the members of the group.

Rose Ors:听How has your compliance experience made you a better lawyer?听

Marcela Kirberger: I have become a better and more emphatic listener. Developing a common understanding requires you to listen closely to others and understand what moves them. I am usually driven to act, so I regularly have to ask myself, “Am I listening enough?” Compliance also sharpened my focus on deeply understanding the business鈥檚 strategic priorities and developing a competitive and sustainable framework to achieve them.

Rose Ors: Any other career-changing moments?听

Marcela Kirberger:听Yes 鈥� leaving Novartis after 11 years to take on the role of global general counsel of Leica Microsystems, a Danaher company. Danaher has a very strong 鈥渃ontinuous improvement鈥� culture and metrics-intensive approach to their businesses that focuses on processes and performance.

There is a motto at Danaher that continues to resonate with me: 鈥淚t is about the problem, not the person.鈥� The idea that problems get solved by people coming together in a structured way, getting to the root cause, and putting in place sustainable solutions was refreshing. At Leica, I realized there are many practical and business-relevant key performance indicators we could use in the legal department to show the value that we add 鈥� and also, that we could use metrics and language that are standard in the rest of the company.

Rose Ors: What are you passionate about?听

Marcela Kirberger:听I enjoy being a mentor. Besides mentoring those on my legal team, I am active in mentoring and supporting minorities, Latinos, and women in the companies where I have worked. At Roche, I co-chair the Women Leadership Initiative, and I am active in our efforts to expand opportunities for Latinos. And, of course, I am passionate about my family. I am never happier or laugh more than when my husband and I are with our children.

Rose Ors: Who inspires you?听

Marcela Kirberger:听That is easy. My in-laws, Brian and Judy Kirberger. They are the most selfless and wisest humans I have ever met. They live in a tiny 250-person village in Western Pennsylvania and never really traveled much. Yet, they are the most open-minded and evolved people. They are role models for humility, empathy, and inclusiveness. They have inspired me to be a better person from the moment I met them and have had a significant impact on how I view the world and relate to others.

Rose Ors:听Now, for the final question. Besides their legal acumen, how can outside law firms add value to you and your legal department?

Marcela Kirberger:听They can add value in two ways. First, proactively providing us information on external trends and developments that are business-relevant to what we do. Second, and more importantly, offering appropriately calibrating risk.

Please do not offer me a foolproof, waterproof, bulletproof solution 鈥� it may be too restrictive. Understand our business and risk appetite, so that we can jointly develop a smart and practical solution. Both of these suggestions require law firms to invest in deeply understanding us and our business.

This interview has been edited and condensed by Rose Ors.

We continue our monthly feature, Upfront & Personal, a column created by听听that brings 鈥渢he person behind the title鈥� to the forefront in interviews with some of the most influential members of the legal community.

Rose Ors: There has been much talk about the legal industry’s need to join the Fourth Industrial Revolution, with much of that focusing on digital transformation. What does 鈥渄igital transformation鈥� mean in the context of a corporate legal department?

Dan Lange: Some think digital transformation is all about adopting and using technology; and others believe it is all about using data to gain business insights. Each is partially correct.

Digital transformation does require both technology and data, but what will drive change is the ability of the general counsel and others in the legal department to reimagine how to optimize the department鈥檚 value to the company it serves.

Rose Ors: Deloitte helps transform many functional areas within companies throughout the world. Where do legal departments fall on the digital transformation spectrum?

Dan Lange: Overall, legal departments are one of the last departments to be transformed. Some legal departments are quite far along in that journey, but many are still operating in the same manner they have for decades. The pace of adoption continues to be relatively slow.

Rose Ors: Why do you think that is?

Dan Lange: It is not easy for legal departments to transform themselves because much of their work involves interacting with a range of business areas. They are not self-contained with end-to-end control and ownership of essential workflows, and that interdependence introduces complexity into the transformation process.

For example, contract lifestyle management is an area with many individual stakeholders who play a role in a multi-step process. It is not as simple as the legal department unilaterally saying, 鈥淲e are going to change how we manage contracts to become more efficient.鈥� They must get buy-in from all the other stakeholders.

Rose Ors: What are the most significant changes legal departments need to make?

Dan Lange: Legal departments typically do not accumulate or utilize the data needed to transform themselves. Decisions often continue to rely on the intuition and experience of the lawyer making them. A successful transformation requires a data strategy, and it also requires a rich and reliable dataset that can be mined for meaningful insights quickly. The results, of course, are smarter decisions and measurable outcomes.

Rose Ors: What鈥檚 an example?

Dan Lange: Let鈥檚 take contracts again. A high-quality repository of contracts is becoming table stakes for legal teams. Digital storage of the actual agreements supported with appropriate data-tagging provides for rapid search, retrieval, and reporting. Tagging metadata inside contracts can help measure risk positions and identify critical milestones and deadlines, as well as identifying those who must approve the contracts.

A repository could increase efficiency by providing contract templates and clause libraries to speed future contract drafting. When privacy rules or other laws change, the repository would enable the legal department to quickly determine which contracts have clauses that need to be revised.

A successful transformation also requires legal departments to employ the multi-disciplinary expertise that many departments now lack. Those departments that invest more in Legal Ops will accelerate the pace of change.

Rose Ors: What else must legal departments address?

Dan Lange: Legal departments tend to focus on changing individual aspects of their operation in isolation. This one-off approach can result in disjointed investments in process improvements and technologies which may not operate well with each other or are not connected to the greater enterprise.

There are far too many instances in which corporate legal departments define a problem too narrowly. Technology is a prime example. A legal department sees a need for a technology upgrade, buys that technology, and thinks it will solve whatever larger problem there is. When the issue remains, they are dissatisfied with the technology and may stop using it.

Rose Ors: How can legal departments avoid too narrow a focus?

Dan Lange: Legal departments must recognize that real transformation consists of several elements. It will require expertise in four key areas: change management, process improvement, technology utilization, and project management. You need to employ a multi-disciplinary set of skills and experiences as well as subject matter specialists.

At Deloitte, we launched Legal Business Services to meet these broad needs.

Rose Ors: What does Deloitte bring to the table?

Dan Lange: As the world’s largest professional services organization, we have extensive experience in those four key areas I just mentioned and subject matter specialists, all of which we can draw on from around the globe. We have decades of experience applying our knowledge to help legal departments align their talent, data, and technology.

We recently added some of the most talented and respected market leaders to our team, including Mark Ross, Richard Levine, Lewis Christian, and Steven Walker. Our goal is to help the legal department move from a primarily risk management and compliance center to one that drives quantifiable business value.

Rose Ors: What does a modern in-house legal department look like five to 10 years from now?

Dan Lange: I see a legal department where lawyers are focused on strategic issues using data to drive faster and better decisions 鈥� a department that leverages data and artificial intelligence to perform low-risk, high-volume tasks more efficiently and offer self-help options to the business units.

The department also will use technologies that are not one-offs, but rather a suite of legal technology that is connected to the rest of the organization.

Rose Ors: What are the benefits of this cultural and technological shift?

Dan Lange: It has long been the goal of most general counsels and their legal departments to be valued as strategic business partners. Digital transformation will help them achieve this goal.

Rose Ors: What are you most proud of about the way you lead your life?

Seth Weissman: I am most proud of the efforts I have made to be a better version of myself, both personally and professionally. On the personal side, I come from a household of violence and significant dysfunction. I knew I did not want to repeat the family pattern, but I also recognized I did not have the tools to work through what I had experienced and seen.

That led me to begin therapy and counseling in my 20s 鈥� something I continue to this day. While I still have miles to go to understand, forgive, and move forward, I am a much better and happier person today than when I began therapy.

Rose Ors: And professionally?

Seth Weissman: Mid-career, I realized I had a lot of room for improvement professionally. I, again, recognized I did not have all the tools I needed to make the necessary changes, so I began working with an executive coach. And as was the case in my personal journey, I benefited from a trained professional鈥檚 perspective and expertise.

Being coached was such a great experience for me, I became a certified coach myself because I wanted to have that impact on others. So, I became a part-time coach for about two years while I figured out what I wanted to do next.

Rose Ors: How do therapy and coaching compare for you?

Seth Weissman: Therapy helps me look at my past to understand what I experienced and how it is showing up in my personal narrative and relationships. Coaching is much more about the professional you are now, how you relate to others, and how they relate to you.

Rose Ors: What prompted you to leave coaching and return to law?

Seth Weissman: As much as I loved being a coach, there is something about being part of a team, having an impact on the team, and maybe an impact on a broader part of the company. I feel like I can positively impact dozens of people’s lives.

Rose Ors: What do you find most personally rewarding about your work?

Seth Weissman: I am a leader who wants to guide exceptional people toward massive growth. I get deep satisfaction from seeing my team grow and develop.

My goal is to come to work every day and see light bulbs go on, see people think about where they can go and what they can do. I want them to find joy and experience happiness in their work. I am most proud of the fact that a number of lawyers I have led have become general counsel themselves.

Also, I am very passionate about being part of a diverse team. My experience running three HR departments and working as an employment lawyer has shaped the hiring approach I have used to build such a group. I have found that when I look to recruit individuals with high emotional intelligence (EQ) for my teams, the composition of the team is always diverse.

Rose Ors: Why do you think that has been your experience?

Seth Weissman: There are four components to EQ. Most lawyers score well on the two attributes that comprise personal competency: self-management and self-awareness. What distinguishes the high-EQ candidates I seek is their social competency, which entails social awareness and relationship management.

They have empathy, can pick up on emotional clues and know how to develop and maintain good relationships. I think if you are a part of a group that has been marginalized, you develop such traits because you have had to work on finding where you fit and how others fit with you. Put simply, I believe that if you recruit for a strong EQ, especially in the social competencies, that you also recruit for diversity.

Rose Ors: What person, living or dead, would you like to have over for dinner?

Seth Weissman: It would be a close call with Nelson Mandela beating out Winston Churchill by a nose. I considered Churchill because here is this imperfect human being who was the one person to stand firm in protecting the entire world against fascism and Nazism. What a lonely place to be, the last line of defense against such evil. What courage, what fortitude.

Mandela was a man who had been wrongly incarcerated for 27 years. I chose him over Churchill because of his ability to forgive those who had wronged him. Imagine what an extraordinarily developed, caring, loving human being Mandela was to not seek retribution against his captors.

Rose Ors: What questions would you ask Mandela?

Seth Weissman: The first question would be, “What gave you the strength to endure?” and then, “How were you able to forgive?”

Forgiveness is a concept I have struggled to understand in my own life. I would love to forgive at a deeper level and would want to learn from Mandela how he forgave decades of atrocity.

Rose Ors: Now the final question: Besides legal acumen, how can outside law firms add value?

Seth Weissman: To me, great lawyering is as much about asking the right questions as it is about giving the right answers. A great lawyer asks, “What are you trying to do and why are you trying to do it?” and then helps the client think it through. Lawyers often feel compelled to provide what they believe is the single best answer, often the most conservative one, and in effect are making the decision for the client.

I think it is far more helpful to serve as a catalyst in exploring different options. Great lawyers say 鈥淵es, and鈥︹�� They help the client determine what outcome they are looking for and then say 鈥淵es鈥� with an eye towards weighing the risk and reward.

This interview has been edited and condensed by Rose Ors.

Rose Ors: What is a childhood memory that brings you joy?

Damien Atkins: As the child of a diplomat, I have done a lot of traveling and have loved every minute of it. The joyous memory that immediately comes to mind was the trip to Quito, Ecuador, that I took with my family when I was 10 years old. It was my father鈥檚 first overseas posting after he joined the State Department.

The reason this memory brings me joy is it triggered my lifelong love for adventure, exploration, and cultures. I will never forget when we got off the plane in Ecuador and were immediately enveloped by new smells, new sounds, and new people. It was magic.

Rose Ors: What is your leadership philosophy?

Damien Atkins: My leadership philosophy begins with integrity. It is the platform supporting three tenets: commitment, collaboration, and communication. These are the three power values that I focus on for myself and my legal team.

By commitment, I mean the attitudes and actions that demonstrate a sustained focus on making a positive impact on your organization. By collaboration, I mean the attitudes and behaviors that demonstrate a respect for the individual, together with respect for the team. By communication, I mean the ability to effectively convey and receive information in a manner that forges strong relationships.

Rose Ors: What role does communication play in how you are leading your department through the COVID-19 crisis?

Damien Atkins: Communicating is perhaps the most important role I have right now. To that end, every week we get together as a group for a 15-minute video 鈥渉uddle鈥� where we go over what鈥檚 going on that week. Every day I try to speak to at least two members of the team individually.

My goal on these calls is to have the type of water-cooler conversations I would have when we are all in the office. I also think it鈥檚 important to have some fun. To that end, the team has held informal video happy hours. We鈥檝e even had a costume contest that sparked a lot of individual creativity and was terrific fun.

Rose Ors: What do you find most personally rewarding about your work?

Damien Atkins: I find it very rewarding when my personal passions and my professional contributions meet on the job. So, for me, working on complex M&A deals, high-stakes government investigations, or global public affairs, is hugely rewarding because these are areas I enjoy, and I know are critically important to my company.

I also find great satisfaction in helping people on my team reach their fullest potential. Whether it鈥檚 helping someone ascend to a general counsel role, or pursue a judicial appointment, if I can coach and mentor them into getting closer to achieving those aspirations, I am delighted. As the Rev. Martin Luther King so wisely noted: 鈥淟ife鈥檚 most persistent and urgent question is, 鈥榃hat are you doing for others?鈥欌��

Rose Ors: How do you help unlock someone鈥檚 potential?

Damien Atkins: There is no one-size-fits-all formula. But what I鈥檝e learned from personal experience and from reading books by legendary college football coach, John Wooden and others, is that you start by finding out what really motivates a person. Some people are motivated by prestige. Others are motivated by money. Still others by praise. Once you figure out what someone truly values, you can move on to how best to communicate and reach that person. You have to ask them lots of questions, and then listen to what they say and how they say it.

Rose Ors: Who are some of your mentors and coaches?

Damien Atkins: Chris Reynolds, the general counsel of Toyota, is an invaluable and constant source of insight and advice. I give him a call or send him an email, and he responds right away. In each instance I walk away learning something new and valuable.

A number of my former bosses are mentors. There is Dennis Friedman, a partner at Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher. I met him when I was a law student, and he鈥檚 remained someone I go to get great advice. I also count as a mentor Joe Taylor. Joe was the CEO of Panasonic when I was at the company. Then there is Werten Bellamy and Kellye Walker, a couple who are 鈥� informally 鈥� my personal coaches.

Each one for different reasons, but who have been tremendous mentors for me.

Rose Ors: You have an impressive personal board of directors. What makes each of them invaluable to you?

Damien Atkins: Each provide guidance and insight from their unique set of experiences, but the common thread is their candor. They are not afraid to tell me things about myself that may make me uncomfortable. It has been their honest talk that has helped me grow personally and professionally. As Ray Dalio鈥檚 book, Principles posits: 鈥淧ain plus reflection equals progress.鈥�

Rose Ors: Who inspires you and why?

Damien Atkins: I am inspired by people with high integrity and who have a clear vision of what they want to do, and then go do it. I am inspired by people that take big bets like Tim Armstrong, my former boss and CEO at AOL. He took over AOL when it was pretty much dead in the water, and through a series of huge bets, transformed the company and led it to a successful exit.

Another example of someone who took big bets was Frederick Douglas. I just finished reading his biography and was awestruck by how this man, at great personal risk to himself and his family, spoke out against slavery.

Rose Ors: If you were a fly on the wall, what conversation would you want to listen to?

Damien Atkins: Rather than a fly on the wall, I would love to somehow get into the mind of Marcus Aurelius. I read his book, Meditations, a couple times a year. I find it an invaluable source of wisdom and guidance.

Here was an individual who had all the power in the world, and he chose to write this book about the struggle within himself. He wanted to know how he could be a good person. He wanted to learn how to lead. Even with all the power he possessed he wanted to be more. To listen to his internal dialogue would be fascinating.

Rose Ors: Finally, aside from legal acumen, how can outside law firms add value to their corporate clients?

Damien Atkins: Law firms, indeed all professional service firms, need to ask the question: 鈥淲hat value can we provide our clients that they can鈥檛 get from an algorithm?鈥� Why? Because in the next 20 years or so, most of the things that you do, a software program will be able to do better, faster, and at much larger scale.

Future lawyers need to focus on the areas that artificial intelligence can鈥檛 replicate such as leveraging relationships, sharing insights, making introductions, and showing empathy. These skills hold great value now and not having them is not the end of lawyers; but in the not-so-distant future, these skills are what will determine our professional value.

This interview has been edited and condensed by Rose Ors.

Tonya Robinson, Vice Chair and General Counsel at KPMG, spoke with Ms. Ors, the CEO and Founder of ClientSmart, about who inspires her, the value of being genuine, and why it鈥檚 so important to lean into her firm鈥檚 values and culture during this time of crisis.

Rose Ors: What are you most proud of about the way you lead your life?

Tonya Robinson: I am quite blessed to have inherited a strong work ethic and keen sense of fairness, both traits that I value greatly, but am equally proud of my genuineness. I pretty much show up the same way with everyone. By that I mean I am the same person whether I am with KPMG鈥檚 Chairman and CEO, members of my legal team, or family and friends. It is very important to me that I bring my authentic self to every interaction. I have found that being my true self 鈥� and being true to myself 鈥� reaps many personal and professional rewards.

Rose Ors: How easy has that been to do?

Tonya Robinson: At home and in personal relationships, it always has been easy just to be me. If I鈥檓 being honest, at work, it has been a process, with me always being very comfortable with who I am and my story but over time growing more confident, and even adamant, about sharing that story openly in the workplace.

I have a very vivid recollection that illustrates the point and was a real 鈥渁-ha鈥� moment for me. My former law firm hosted a panel on work-life balance that included lawyers from different corners of the profession, including at law firms and in-house. One of the panelists shared the tricks that she鈥檇 employ to be able to attend parent-teacher conferences, school plays and soccer games, sometimes held during working hours, with no one at the firm knowing.

Hearing her describe her approach struck a nerve for me. I did not want to employ tricks and tactics to navigate work and family life. I promised myself that, no matter the balancing challenges I would face when I started a family, I would do so in plain sight. I have kept my promise.

I also made another decision not so long after that day. I decided that I was not going to spend my energies trying to fit a mold at work. I was going to be me. It鈥檚 a curious thing, that decision to focus less on blending in, and more on just showing up as myself, unlocked a heap of energy and creativity that I could re-direct to honing my craft. I could bring my unique experiences and viewpoints to the problems I was charged with solving at work, and the outcomes were improved because of it. I was a better lawyer, a better problem-solver, and a better colleague.

Rose Ors: Who inspires you?

Tonya Robinson: I have a few inspirations, but first among them is my 12-year old daughter. I am inspired by the way she views the world. I have run through life with a sense of urgency 鈥� somewhat Type A, I have to admit. My daughter 鈥� who is thoughtful and creative and also impatient in her own way 鈥� brings out those very characteristics in me. I鈥檓 smarter, more imaginative and eager because of her, and because I see myself through her young eyes.

Rose Ors: How so?

Tonya Robinson: I鈥檒l share an example that had a deep impact on me. It must have been four or five years ago. We were sitting around the kitchen table doing arts and crafts and she is trying to teach me how to make tissue paper flowers. While she was furiously fidgeting with the petals, she glanced my way and says: “You know, mommy, the trick to doing this is messing up.” Her declaration hit me hard. And she was right 鈥� the trick was to avoid being overly concerned with creating the perfect flower, and instead tug on the paper petals and even be a little messy. It made me realize I too needed to get comfortable messing up, venturing outside my comfort zone. You have to put yourself in a place where you’re stretching yourself. It is not enough to do only those things you can do perfectly with your eyes closed.

So, what came out of that afternoon at the kitchen table with my wise daughter was this: If I want to develop professionally, if I want to help develop others, I need to create the space for myself and my team where messing up is ok. We should look forward to doing things we have never done before even if the first several times we struggle to get it perfectly right.

Rose Ors: How important is this openness to change for your team at KPMG?

Tonya Robinson: It is very important. Parts of our business undergo reinvention frequently. Our business-side colleagues are innovating and finding new solutions for clients鈥� needs all the time. That means that the lawyers on my team are constantly facing novel business opportunities and challenges. In this very dynamic environment, the lawyers who are most comfortable with a measure of discomfort will really thrive.

Rose Ors: How are you leading your legal team during this unprecedented and fragile of times?

Tonya Robinson: These are indeed unprecedented and challenging times for everyone. For us, it鈥檚 more important now than ever that we lean into our values and our culture, which prioritizes the well-being of our people and support for our clients and community above all else. We continue to work hard, and that means pulling together, supporting one another, listening and responding to the needs of our teams, and being open to new ways of working. I鈥檓 so proud of my colleagues, who have demonstrated great resilience and continued to provide high-quality and caring service through it all.

Rose Ors: Who else inspires you?

Tonya Robinson: My mother inspires me. The memory of my maternal grandfather inspires me. I continue to marvel how they were able to give me so much when they had so few resources. They’ve made some pretty significant sacrifices in order for me to have the big opportunities I enjoyed. I am both grateful and inspired.

They also instilled in me a sense of family and family values that have grounded me and that I bring with me wherever I go. There is an Alice Walker poem that poignantly expresses how 鈥渉er mama鈥檚 generation鈥� 鈥渒new what we must know without knowing a page of it themselves.鈥�

My grandfather and my mother knew what I needed to know to navigate the world in which I am operating now, even though that was not their own experience. They taught me to show up in the world confidently, proudly, and with kindness and respect for everyone. How they knew what I must know. That’s inspiration.

Rose Ors: What person would you most want to have over for dinner?

Tonya Robinson: I would invite my maternal grandmother. She passed away when my mother was no more than 15. Even though I never met her, I have always known that my story is inextricably bound to hers. Having the chance to talk with her would be illuminating. It would allow me to fill in the pages. I would want to know her aspirations, her and my grandfather鈥檚 love story, what she loved most about her life in rural North Carolina, what made her sad鈥� so many questions.

I would also invite Toni Morrison. When I read her book, The Bluest Eye, I wept. It made me see my own experience in a different way. It made me see the world in a different way.

Rose Ors: I also love Ms. Morrison. Her ability to choose words that come together as in a song is sublime. It gives me chills.

Tonya Robinson: You鈥檙e so right. To describe her writing as a song perfectly describes her work. It does have that character. It鈥檚 lyrical, and moves you in a way music would.

Rose Ors: Let鈥檚 close by moving from the poetic to the prosaic. Outside of legal acumen, how can outside law firms add value to corporate clients in your view?

Tonya Robinson: We are looking for our outside law firms that are prepared to invest in building a strong relationship with us. We need them to understand who we are, understand what we do, and what we value. We’re looking for partners. We hosted our first ever outside counsel summit in 2019 and a huge part of those conversations were around supporting one another, building the relationship.

This interview has been edited and condensed by Rose Ors.

Rose Ors: What childhood memory brings you joy?

Jan Kang: For me, it’s not a single memory. It’s basically any memory of my youngest brother, Steve, who was killed in a car accident when he was 28. In a family where my sister became a doctor, my other brother became an electrical engineer with an MBA, and I became a lawyer, Steve was the creative one. He was working towards a Master of Fine Arts in film at USC. He was funny and quirky and could make me laugh harder than anybody else.

Let me give you an example. My husband and I, and Steve, were going to an investment club meeting and stopped to buy beer to bring to the event. I didn’t have my purse, so I just grabbed my husband’s wallet. As luck would have it, the clerk asked me for my driver鈥檚 license. Since I didn鈥檛 have it, I yelled for Steve to come in and show his I.D. I also showed the clerk my husband鈥檚 I.D. and said, 鈥淗ere鈥檚 my husband鈥檚 ID 鈥� he鈥檚 old.鈥� Typical of Steve, he poked fun at my efforts, saying in front of the clerk, “Yes, but he ordered you from a catalog. I鈥檓 very glad you sent for me.” We laughed so hard then, and just retelling it now makes me happy.

Rose Ors: It鈥檚 wonderful that you can keep these types of moments alive.

Jan Kang: I do. What makes me really sad is when I think about how my children will never have the chance to meet Steve. They would have loved him so much, and he would have loved being an uncle to them.

Rose Ors: What have been the most significant moments in your career?

Jan Kang: There have been several. The first occurred years ago when I returned to the Bay area after spending a couple of years in Korea, leaving a position as a foreign legal consultant at Shin & Kim. Economic conditions were bad. I was having trouble finding a job and sent out 100 letters to Bay Area companies.

Founding the WGCN 10 years ago was huge. What started out as a dinner with five women is now approaching 1,000 members nationally.

The only interest I received was from Jim DeLong, who was Applied Materials鈥� Director of Legal at the time. Not only did he hire me as a contract lawyer, but he offered to pay me more than I asked. I will always remember how kind and compassionate Jim was to me and how that was the start of my in-house career.

Another significant moment arose from a seemingly mundane interaction with an IT help desk guy when I worked at Prism Solutions. It turns out that guy was Stephen Gillett, who was the co-founder and CEO of Chronicle. About six years ago when Stephen was COO of Symantec, he invited me to connect on LinkedIn, explaining how he knew me from Prism. A year or two later I ran into him at a fundraiser, and then in the summer of 2017, he reached out to me again on LinkedIn to arrange a discussion about joining Chronicle. So, the moral of this story is always be nice to your IT guy.

Rose Ors: I imagine the Women’s General Counsel Network (WGCN) also has been an important part of your professional journey.

Jan Kang: Founding the WGCN 10 years ago was huge. What started out as a dinner with five women is now approaching 1,000 members nationally. We are not a nonprofit. We do not collect dues and, except for last year’s 10-year anniversary events, we do not seek sponsors. Our remarkable success has happened purely as a volunteer-based organization.

Rose Ors: Talk about how it started.

Jan Kang: Laura Weinstein, then general counsel at Symphony Services and one of the original five, said she did not know what to expect at that first dinner. She described feeling like it was a blind date with four people. But it was an amazing first date. We immediately had so much to talk about and liked each other so much that we began to invite our colleagues in other companies to join us.

In these 10 years, friendships have developed, trusted relationships have been built, and people have gotten jobs through the network. I am forever grateful for what WGCN has given me 鈥� a sense of community and accomplishment. I am equally gratified that I helped create an organization that so many women find valuable professionally and personally.

Rose Ors: What is your favorite pastime and why?

Jan Kang: One of my favorite pastimes is doing the daily New York Times crossword puzzle. I鈥檝e done the puzzle now for 625 consecutive days and counting. Ok, so I cheat a bit, but not that much! I enjoy the challenge of it, as well as the memories the old references call to mind. When else would you think about old TV shows like Hazel and Mr. Ed?

Rose: In another life, what career would you find interesting to pursue?

Jan Kang: Two careers come to mind, both of which I have sampled and found to be less romantic than I imagined. The first is archeology. I attended an archeology camp when I was in high school. It was a lot of hard and tedious labor involving scraping away layers of dirt in a three-foot square and rarely finding something significant.

I also had an interest in writing. When I was in Korea, before joining Shin & Kim, I was a journalist and wrote two articles for the Arts and News section of the Asian Wall Street Journal. When I was looking for a job after returning to the States, I started to write a screenplay. While the notion of writing was appealing, I found it to be very lonely and isolating.

There are a lot of people who seem to have career aspirations for me. Lauren Segal, who is a friend and another one of the original WGCN five, says the phases of life are 鈥渓earn, earn, and serve.鈥� I feel like now I may be approaching the serve phase. I don鈥檛 think I want to be an elected official 鈥� the idea of asking people for money seems unsavory to me. However, I might consider doing something in the public sector or government. Stay tuned.

Rose Ors: Aside from legal acumen, how can outside law firms add value to their corporate clients?

Jan Kang: This may seem like an odd word choice, but what I want are law firms that delight me. Delight can take many forms. It could be avoiding negative surprises such as showing up at a meeting with way more people than necessary and then charging me for it.

It could be understanding that diversity matters to me and staffing my matters with a diverse client service team. It could be sharing with me, without divulging confidential information, a solution they successfully employed with another client in a situation similar to mine.

To sum up, I want to feel like they have my company and my internal client’s best interest in mind.

This interview has been edited and condensed by Rose Ors.